djrad
New Member
Posts: 37
|
Guitar
Jun 21, 2007 15:25:20 GMT -8
Post by djrad on Jun 21, 2007 15:25:20 GMT -8
Hi Everyone, I was told recently that Ed tends to play a lot of things in the same key on guitar. Being a new guitar player, I wondered if this was true. If so, what key does he use?
|
|
djrad
New Member
Posts: 37
|
Guitar
Jul 1, 2007 18:41:55 GMT -8
Post by djrad on Jul 1, 2007 18:41:55 GMT -8
Anybody??
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 6, 2007 7:27:21 GMT -8
Post by kirk on Jul 6, 2007 7:27:21 GMT -8
There are quite a few tracks in the same key(s). But the rumour is incorrect. Most ozrics music is in a minor key, however both guitar and keys often include chordal substitutes. Popular keys are b, b flat, f sharp. Ayurvedic for instance is in b minor, however the riff is loosely based around minor modes rather than the natural minor or Aolian scale. Ed likes the following modes a lot - Phrygian, Dorian, Mixolydian (a major mode), he also uses melodic minor spiced up with chromatic notes. One of the things Ozrics (and modern Jazz) utilise an awful lot are suspended chords (chords that do not have a 3rd). They do this so the 3rd can vary and the tonality can shift from major to minor, and be inplied by the bass, or a chord on the keys, or Ed can vary tonality by switching between a major or a minor mode / pentatonic scale when soloing. A popular Ozric (and Heavy rock trick) is to play a section of music in a particular key and move everything up either a tone or a minor 3rd. There are lots of Ozrics tracks that use this musical device. Ed does not like talking "shop" about music and has said on record that he does not know what he is doing, as he plays by ear. I have sat and watched Ed play Jazz guitar quite a few times and can tell you that Ed does know what he is doing and that he understands exactly what a sus 4 chord is. Ed can play any chord you choose to mention in either root, 3rd in bass, 5th in bass (you name it ) 7th in bass etc. Ed used to tune his older Ibanez to E flat (like Jimi and Stevie Ray Vaughan). Tuning a guitar to eFlat enables you to bend enormous intervals (sometimes a fifth or a sharp fifth). A guitar with a floyd rose cannot bend up to more that a sharp fifth if tuned to e Natural. The strings will either choke out or snap (top E pops). The exception to this is steinberg guitars (which Hillage know uses), you can pull up more on these because its a shorter scale lenghth.
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 6, 2007 8:03:23 GMT -8
Post by ozrics-mike on Jul 6, 2007 8:03:23 GMT -8
Nice post Kirk! I like reading the musical analysis of the Ozric music. It would be cool to start a thread on a particular song and break it down for the musical types on this board. Erpnotes used to get into some discussions over synth techniques to reproduce some ozrics sounds or which patches were used where. If you get an old wavestation you will recognize lots of patches that were used on the older Ozrics releases.
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 9, 2007 4:43:54 GMT -8
Post by kirk on Jul 9, 2007 4:43:54 GMT -8
Thanks Mike ! I wrote the above at work and got interupted. I was intending concluding by advising all the musos to look at "invisible Carpet". This track does everything I describe above. Adam plays bass on this track, it has a very Mike Howlett feel (something Adam said he was aware of). The Bass outlines a minor chord that moves around as I describe above.
Guitarists : play the following chord Emajadd9 at the seventh (open) position, let the top and bottom e string ring. Move the chord (same shape) to the tenth position. Then move it to the twelth position (again let the e strings ring). Does this sound good ? (it's the opening 3 bars of the Smiths "this Charming man") Ed uses chords like this all the time. take any open chord and slide it up, you will find plenty that don't work but many you have heard but did not know how to voice. There is nothing unusual about the notes the band play, they still rely on the same 12 as everyone else. The band do like to use ethnic scales, these are the same notes but in differing orders. Try this; B, C, E, F, G. Thats a pentatonic scale, but its a japanese one. HAVE FUN !!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 9, 2007 21:29:06 GMT -8
Post by philly on Jul 9, 2007 21:29:06 GMT -8
I'll try that Kirk, having a japanese guitar ist should be a doddle!
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 10, 2007 2:18:06 GMT -8
Post by kirk on Jul 10, 2007 2:18:06 GMT -8
Doh! I need to correct some errors in my post above.
the chord is actually EMaj 9 not Emaj add9 (that's a slightly different chord) AND The japanese pentatonic scale should have read B,C, E, F, A. Try bending up from B to C, E to F and A to B. instant "water margin" music (does anybody remember that series ?) Heres an Ozrics Chord for You Bottom E open C sharp(4th fret A string) F sharp (4th fret D string) G string open C sharp (2nd fret B string) Top E open
This chord pops up in a few older tracks, does anyone out there know which ones ?
|
|
lee
New Member
Posts: 5
|
Guitar
Jul 11, 2007 11:13:32 GMT -8
Post by lee on Jul 11, 2007 11:13:32 GMT -8
I've found a lot of "crossings-over" of blues, flamenco, north African and Middle Eastern in the Ozrics -- all that phrygian meets blues pentatonic -- I've loved it all since those old monochrome cassette tapes. (Willl Ozircs.com have a download section there? Would it like one...?)
Just wondering if anyone knows anything about Ed's guitars/boxes/recording set-up?
Thanks in advancve!
Since this is my first post, I'd also like to add a really big 'thanks' to all Ozrics past and present for the truely beautiful music, which has kept me flying through some turbulent weather conditions. Cheers!
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 12, 2007 3:41:00 GMT -8
Post by erphead on Jul 12, 2007 3:41:00 GMT -8
For all of those confused by scale talk here's what wikipedia says about the Phrygian mode:
"The Phrygian mode is named after the ancient kingdom of Phrygia in Anatolia. In Greek music theory it was based on the Phrygian tetrachord: a series of rising intervals of a whole tone, followed by a semitone, followed by a whole tone. Applied to a whole octave, the Phrygian mode was built upon two Phrygian tetrachords separated by a whole tone. This is the same as playing all the white notes on a piano keyboard from D to D: D E F G | A B C D. Placing the two tetrachords together, and the single tone at bottom of the scale produces the Hypophrygian mode (below Phrygian): G | A B C D | (D) E F G. Placing the two tetrachords together, and the single tone at the top of the scale produces the Hyperphrygian mode (above Phrygian), which is effectively the same as the Hypodorian mode: A B C D | (D) E F G | A. Confusingly, the ancient-Greek Phrygian mode is the same as the mediaeval and modern Dorian mode."
Hope it makes sense now!
As a keyboard player and closet guitarist I always found these terms a bit off putting, but as I get older and more armchair bound, I'm fascinated by the Greek and possibly more ancient origins.
But back to the Ozrics, check out the amount of times the root note is followed by a semitone. Eg. Papyrus, Ayurvedic, Sploosh! etc. This is different from the usual major-minor thing where the root is followed by a whole tone but is common in Eastern, Spanish and Psychedelic music.
My advice would be to make up your own scales, I'm sure that's what Ed does, although he probably has his favourites through years of experimentation. His key changes probably evolved after years of listening to and absorbing Steve Hillage's guitar playing. Discuss.
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 12, 2007 7:05:45 GMT -8
Post by erphead on Jul 12, 2007 7:05:45 GMT -8
Here y'go pop pickers, one of my favourite scales: D Eb F# G A Bb C D Anyone know what the ancient Greek for that is? I suppose it's a G minor something or other mode?
|
|
andyc
New Member
Posts: 10
|
Guitar
Jul 12, 2007 9:44:33 GMT -8
Post by andyc on Jul 12, 2007 9:44:33 GMT -8
Doh! I need to correct some errors in my post above. the chord is actually EMaj 9 not Emaj add9 (that's a slightly different chord) AND The japanese pentatonic scale should have read B,C, E, F, A. Try bending up from B to C, E to F and A to B. instant "water margin" music (does anybody remember that series ?) Heres an Ozrics Chord for You Bottom E open C sharp(4th fret A string) F sharp (4th fret D string) G string open C sharp (2nd fret B string) Top E open This chord pops up in a few older tracks, does anyone out there know which ones ? Sounds a lot like O-I to me! |----------------------| |-5--------------------| |---0---4--------------| |-----4---0---4--------| |-----------4----------| |---------------3-2----|
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 13, 2007 2:19:54 GMT -8
Post by kirk on Jul 13, 2007 2:19:54 GMT -8
This chord is similar but not so dissonant as the first and Ed uses it loads. Open bottom E C sharp F sharp A natural B natural open E
I haven't actually checked this but, this chord is probably in the following tracks : health music trees of eternity and I think it may be the last chord in ride on a puff puff (whatever its called - I forget the proper title).
try the first chord, then this one. Try involving a B flat instead of the A natural and it all begins to sound very ethnicy doesn't it ?
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 13, 2007 2:46:17 GMT -8
Post by kirk on Jul 13, 2007 2:46:17 GMT -8
Erphead Is it D phrygian dominant ? it has a major third, so it's major, but when the ear hears a minor second you automatically (in the west) interpret the scale as potentially minor in tonality. I haven't got to grips with the modes formed from melodic and harmonic minor yet, but it is probably one of them. (perhaps, maybe, also !!).
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 13, 2007 3:24:45 GMT -8
Post by ozhead on Jul 13, 2007 3:24:45 GMT -8
Blimey! ;-)
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 13, 2007 5:43:44 GMT -8
Post by erphead on Jul 13, 2007 5:43:44 GMT -8
Erphead Is it D phrygian dominant ? it has a major third, so it's major, but when the ear hears a minor second you automatically (in the west) interpret the scale as potentially minor in tonality. I haven't got to grips with the modes formed from melodic and harmonic minor yet, but it is probably one of them. (perhaps, maybe, also !!). I've no idea Kirk! As a piano player with a bit of classical training I tend to see it as G minor with a D root! But you could be right. Back to wikipedia: "If the third note is augmented back to its major scale value, a Phrygian-dominant mode, which is the fifth mode of the Harmonic Minor scale. Phrygian-dominant is also known as the Spanish gypsy scale, and is often used in flamenco music. Some flamenco music uses both Phrygian and Phrygian-dominant (often switching back and forth between these two scales)." Did you get all that? ?? But really it matters not! It just sounds good to me. When Pink Floyd wrote Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun, I don't think they said "let's play a phrygian dominant mode here..."it just sounded eastern, mysterious and went well with oily light shows. As Ozhead succinctly puts it, blimey indeed ;D
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 13, 2007 6:42:07 GMT -8
Post by kirk on Jul 13, 2007 6:42:07 GMT -8
Yeah blimey !
It's a weird thing talking or writing about music isn't it ?. You can get really bogged down in terminology etc. And as you rightly say it's the sounds that matter.
I don't have a particularly good ear for music. I have studied theory and Jazz theory in a quest to understand the rules in order to break them. So if any one would like to correct any errors in the above, please do so.
(Scoffs that means you, you are a music teacher after all !)
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 13, 2007 7:15:29 GMT -8
Post by ozhead on Jul 13, 2007 7:15:29 GMT -8
You're both perspicacious!
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 13, 2007 9:18:42 GMT -8
Post by damien on Jul 13, 2007 9:18:42 GMT -8
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 13, 2007 9:19:43 GMT -8
Post by damien on Jul 13, 2007 9:19:43 GMT -8
kirk and epr and oz head , it would be cool to write some new music with you ! what do you reckon ?
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 13, 2007 12:09:19 GMT -8
Post by erphead on Jul 13, 2007 12:09:19 GMT -8
ey up Damien! Erphead here, in a previous life, Chris A. Hope my version of Ayurvedic on Erpitaph 2 doesn't put you off...I'm up for it. I write piano bass and treble clef stuff and record things on various bits of old fashioned equipment. I also plan things in a vague chordy format for folks to jam along to. So how shall we do this? What d'you think?
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 13, 2007 17:12:36 GMT -8
Post by etherealise on Jul 13, 2007 17:12:36 GMT -8
Hope my version of Ayurvedic on Erpitaph 2 doesn't put you off... I doubt it... it's pretty cool Chris
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 13, 2007 22:50:48 GMT -8
Post by damien on Jul 13, 2007 22:50:48 GMT -8
/\ + 1 i going to think over it today and see what ideas pop up by this evening . one ideai was thinking was a co written song , that we could both play at different "open mic " nights but to explain it was written over the internet ?
|
|
lee
New Member
Posts: 5
|
Guitar
Jul 14, 2007 14:19:57 GMT -8
Post by lee on Jul 14, 2007 14:19:57 GMT -8
For all of those confused by scale talk here's what wikipedia says about the Phrygian mode: "The Phrygian mode ... In Greek music theory it was based on the Phrygian tetrachord: a series of rising intervals of a whole tone, followed by a semitone, followed by a whole tone. ..." ...But back to the Ozrics, check out the amount of times the root note is followed by a semitone. ... Ah, I thought that was the Phrygian! As for making up scales: make up everything, and then try and find out what the word is for it. It's that last bit that stumps me. I always get a bit put off by theory as too far removed from playing, but I too am knocking on a bit, and must admit that theory sometimes can be quite inspiring, a bit like a great big, unexplored effects rack....
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 16, 2007 0:38:50 GMT -8
Post by kirk on Jul 16, 2007 0:38:50 GMT -8
Hi Damian,
Yes, I'm up for it ! I don't have any way of recording at the moment, so that could make things difficult. Any suggestions as to how we can get it together ? Send me a message with your e mail so's we can have a natter.
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 17, 2007 23:35:05 GMT -8
Post by damien on Jul 17, 2007 23:35:05 GMT -8
hi kirk erphead, ive been trying to workout what would be a good idea ....
kirk ill send you my email , you will probally be able to record straight on your pc . ok so we have a team here and i know there's some more on the psy bab forum , so let get everyone together . ill take the liberty of starting project 1 , open for remixing and recycling , infact i think if each person takes the project and changes it a little it could be good fun , im just going to program about 1minute of drum beats that you should be able to download today , technology willing , then maybe if some else can come up with a say 4 to 16 bar chord sequence(kirk ) someone else could try and record that over the top . (erphead ) back to a mo then
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 18, 2007 0:08:22 GMT -8
Post by damien on Jul 18, 2007 0:08:22 GMT -8
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 18, 2007 0:37:09 GMT -8
Post by erphead on Jul 18, 2007 0:37:09 GMT -8
ey up Damien! I like this idea. I'll have a think when I get home from work. Never used putfile before but I'll give it a go. Collaboration over the net! This is what it was made for...:-)
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 18, 2007 1:27:42 GMT -8
Post by kirk on Jul 18, 2007 1:27:42 GMT -8
Damien, I can't do this in this way, I only have access to a computer at work, What I can do though is write you some lovely treble clef tadpoles and send it to a land address, (with a cd or two). Mail me.
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 18, 2007 2:29:33 GMT -8
Post by erphead on Jul 18, 2007 2:29:33 GMT -8
Hope my version of Ayurvedic on Erpitaph 2 doesn't put you off... I doubt it... it's pretty cool Chris Cheers Mr Ether. Your stuff on Erpitaph 2 is pretty darn good also! Played it last night for the first time in awhile, most enjoyable. These Ozric/Psychobabble boards have got some pretty talented spacey contributors.
|
|
|
Guitar
Jul 19, 2007 0:05:30 GMT -8
Post by erphead on Jul 19, 2007 0:05:30 GMT -8
Damien/Kirk I've had a listen to the drum track. The way I see it, I'll have to record it onto my eight track recorder thing, do some stuff over the top, download onto media player then load onto putfile. I'm game but it may take some time with other things going on, eg. gigs with my RnB band, WOMAD festival attendance etc. But yes, definitely up for it. I'm wondering if Kirk's idea of emailing/posting tadpoles might be another process we could use? How's about making Kirk's idea Project 2? Personally, I'd rather keep it instrumental, I have an aversion to lyrics - Hence the Ozrics fascination. I'll have to think of another process for my project, which we could call er, Project 3.... Anyone else up for world wide musical collaboration? (Wonder if we could get some frippertronics....)
|
|